He Gives and Takes Away?
To some, throwing the question mark up there might make the refrain from “Blessed Be Your Name” sound like a Rob Bell question… I do think Rob’s got a lot good ones, but as a friend of mine told me, the problem is that he doesn’t provide very good answers. I hope to part ways here with Rob Bell who most likely has more followers of his twitter than I do.
I posted this question on the Tun Tavern Fellowship FB group page: Why do Christians blame bad things on God? I elaborated on that question and got some great responses! I’ll attempt summarize what I’m proposing here as simply a different way of looking at a verse often quoted when bad things happen… Even in the movie we’re watching: “Soul Surfer” when Bethany is being rushed to the hospital, the mom says repeatedly “Don’t take her.” The movie also starts with the Matt Redman song “Blessed be Your Name.” My point of view on this is different, and I’m not knocking the mom in the movie, I simply feel there’s another, more comforting way to pray, based on a more accurate view of Who gives good, and who takes away the good, knowing that life is good!
So here it is: Job lost everything, He did not curse God or sin, but he did blame God in an ever so subtle way saying, “He gives and takes away.” and the next 30 something chapters contain reasons why God is at fault for Job’s tragedy. Anyone reading this quickly -with the pervasive idea of our culture -will easily overlook that it was Satan who took everything from Job, and what God says here gets twisted as well. It says Satan incited God to destroy Job for no reason. It does not say God destroyed Job… Semantics? I don’t think so, but feel free to disagree. I simply propose that Job’s theology was flawed in verse 21 of chapter 1. And I believe Job 7:20, 12:9, and 16:9 pretty much prove my point, not to mention 3 of the last 4 chapters of the book as God responds. (By the way 16:10 is about Jesus)
My view of God isn’t just framed by the story of Job of course, but also by what Christ says in John 10:10, and verses like James 1:17. I have considered passages presented in the 19 comment FB thread, and will continue to look at them with an open mind. (that thread is now posted below in the comments) To appease the contrarians, I do believe God takes away things He does not consider good that keep us from Him or as a result of our disobedience.
When good is lost – when a loved one passes – I only hope that after reading this, people will be encouraged to think of God as the One receiving them to be with Him and Who will restore what the locusts have eaten (Joel 2:25 KJV) When we who are Believers die, we’re going home to be with our Lord, He’s not taking us from our loved ones. There is a thief who comes to steal, kill and destroy (John 10:10 again). We must be equipped to do battle with that evil one, (2 Cor 10:3-4) but if we blame God for what Satan does, we’re not just living bad theology, we’re aiding and abetting the enemy!
The Bible says, taste and see that the Lord is good, well, to state the obvious: you gotta taste it to see it! But people can’t taste what they reject before it’s put on their plate, and believe it or not, that’s what starts to happen with a mindset of God taking away the good He’s blessed us with.
In the movie, Carrie Underwood puts it well: “I have to believe that something good is going to come out of this.” But how hard is that to believe when you’re struggling with thoughts that hold God responsible: “He allowed it, He works in mysterious ways, He has a plan that I may not understand…” Those are all well and good, until they start becoming ways to blame Him! How much easier is it to believe the Romans 8:28 outcome when we are convinced of God’s goodness? And anyone who has problems with the word “easy” better take it up with Jesus, because He said His yoke was easy… (Matt 11:30)
Well I went quite long on this one, a bit much for the first level of comm, but I hope it strengthens at least one person’s faith in the goodness of God. That is THE reason I wrote this.
Peace,
Just A Man’s - Friend update web-log 
Here’s the quite long comment thread from face book (last names removed):
John – I would say it’s because those imperfect things he takes away are generally not viewed as such by those they are taken away from.
June 4 at 10:38pm ·
Adam – Yeah, that’s true brother… but He is the one who restores what the locusts have eaten… here’s to hoping more people will find comfort in knowing He wants to give and not take away!
June 4 at 10:53pm
Jonathan – I do think that God takes away, but that God works all things for the good of those that call upon His Name. I think that it is just our human, finite perspective that makes something seem “bad” that is taken away. After all, isn’t it a good thing when a Believer dies and goes to heaven? And if a nonbeliever dies, isn’t that in effect God working out His righteous judgement? I think that all things that come to pass are part of His perfect plan, and even things like natural disasters are a part of bringing His plan to its’ completion. Here’s some food for thought. God made the angel Lucifer, knowing ultimately he would become the devil. Yet He still made him, that His Holy love and mercy, as well as His perfect judgement might be known. I know this is a bit out there, but would we be able to love God as much if we had only lived in a perfect world, and never known His healing power or forgiveness?
June 5 at 9:02am ·
Jonathan – No, I don’t necessarily say that God caused bad things to happen, as God cannot do evil things, but I do think that we can say that He allows certain things to occur that are unpleasant in the short run, but ultimately bring Him greater glory!
June 5 at 9:05am ·
Adam – So the question becomes: do you believe that there is a difference between what God allows and what God causes? I personally have come to the conclusion recently that it is dangerous to assert God takes something good – like a loved one – and use the God could have prevented it mentality. I believe it is God’s desire to restore what has been taken as I alluded to, and I believe Satan would have us believe that God is responsible because then we won’t go to God for restoration. Bottom line, we should fear Him because of Who He is, not what He does. All things must be backed up by scripture though, and I haven’t found any scripture that seems to support the notion that God takes, except for Job’s response which like I said I think is bad theology, since this is the perfect case where Satan takes away, and God allows. A more accurate statement by Job would have been: “The Lord gives and allows things to be taken away, but I will praise His Name because He knows best!”
So my question is: do you see The difference and the danger of calling those things the same?
June 5 at 9:14am ·
Jonathan – I have to admit, I thought I could think of a couple instances in Scripture that pointed to God taking away things, but it turns out I was wrong. Nowhere in my brief examination could I find one instance of God taking anything except in judgement. While I’ve always believed there was a difference between God causing something to happen, and God allowing things to happen, for some reason realizing that God does not take things away was a rather startling thing to consider. Thank you for a thought provoking discussion.
June 5 at 2:04pm ·
Karl – The danger in reading God’s judgment into “bad situations” is that we fall prey to a karma-like view of things. Romans 8:28 tells us to view them otherwise. God uses all sort of situations to help us grow. Didn’t God take away Elijah? No judgment there. Didn’t God take away Sarai’s ability to bear children until the time was right? No judgment there. We have to trust God in all things. Adam, you’re right to question Christians’ views of blaming bad things on God. That, I believe, arises from this “karmic-like” view of things (which later rocks our world when bad people get away with bad things). But I think it’s too much to say that God only takes things away for punishment and judgment…that’s the very reason Christians tend to blame Him! We must recognize that He takes things away sometimes because we don’t know what’s good for us.
June 5 at 3:03pm ·
Tom – Psalm 73 has some interesting insights on this topic…
June 5 at 3:38pm ·
Jonathan – I agree about the risk of thinking of things with the perspective of karma-esque judgement. And that God can use all kinds of situations to grow us. But I do think it worth noting the difference between taking away, and withholding from us until God’s timing is perfect. I agree that it is not a judgement thing. But I do agree with Adam Johns that I haven’t been able to find a passage that explicitly states that God has taken something away from us. I initially thought of the passage in John 9, where Jesus’ disciples ask whether the crippled man or his parents sinned, but it doesn’t actually state that God caused him to be deformed. Can you point to any passages that do talk about God taking away something from us?
June 5 at 3:48pm
Tom – 2 Corinthians 12:7-10 indicate that God allowed Paul to be tormented by a “thorn in the flesh, a messenger of Satan.” You might say that God took away Paul’s freedom from this affliction, whatever it was, so that he would be reminded who is the source of his strength in the Lord. In 2 Cor 12:4, Paul had heard inexpressible things, things that man is not permitted to tell.” There was certainly a higher purpose in this, not of judgment, but of mission!
June 5 at 3:57pm
Karl – Concur with Tom; and like I referred to, God took away Elijah, he took away Sarai’s ability to bear children. Yes, there’s a distinction between withholding and taking away, but sometimes it’s a distinction without a difference. God takes away a lot of things from us for a variety of reasons. Just because it may not explicitly state “God took away…” doesn’t mean that it isn’t so. I think Psalm 73 was really the right place to point towards on something like this.
June 5 at 5:38pm ·
Adam – Sweet we got another one going, it’s been too long!!! But I don’t know gents, you’re going to have to work harder than that! A messenger from Satan? Using a verse like that to explain how God takes away freedom??? And the point isn’t that God takes away “many things”. The point is that God doesn’t take away what is good- as defined by Him. Psalm 73 seems to be in line with what I’m thinking, so I guess we must agree if we agree that it’s a good place to go… But we might be reading differently, I’m looking at verses 18-19
Also saying God took Elijah away doesn’t seem to fit either, because the way I see it, Elijah had accomplished His work (God’s work) and had passed the torch on to Elisha – a double portion actually! Elijah was going home, he wasn’t being taken – but that’s my perspective and I’m not sure we can exegetically determine either way. God has his reasons that reason knows not of, to alter Pascal’s famous quote. As for Sarai, to say her child baring capability was taken away is to ignore the fact that children are a blessing from the Lord- a gift. So keep ’em coming gents, but I’m not convinced. 😉
June 5 at 9:13pm ·
Karl – No, Adam, you will have to better and swatting down these points. You are rightfully questioning the attitude/belief of some Christians who would “blame God” for “bad things”. You try to use this “taking away” thing as bad theology claiming that they are related. You have to prove that connection first…some Christians do NOT blame God for bad things AND believe that God gives and takes away. So you’ll have to develop that connection first.
Next, you cannot just play word games with “it’s a blessing from the Lord” as a refutation. The fact that God took away this blessing does nothing to refute the fact that He took it away. EVERYTHING is a blessing from the Lord. So, to use your logic then NOTHING can be taken away. Think about it.
You give no solid ground as to why the taking away of Elijah is not a taking away. Sure, his work was done…so God took him away. If God didn’t take him away, who did? He didn’t leave of his own accord. You’ll have to do better than “doesn’t seem to fit”. And we haven’t even touched on the story of Joseph and everything he lost. Don’t overemphasize the issue of it didn’t say “God took away…” In the case of Joseph, there’s no explicit “deal” with Satan.
Tom is right on with Psalm, and I think one of the keys is found in v16. It’s a wearisome task to discern the inner workings of God and His reasons for what He does. Despite our best efforts, God will not be put in a box and His ways are not ours. Sometimes we have to accept this mystery.
I would challenge you to examine your own sense of fairness, as it seems to be the dissonance with which you find this to be “bad theology”. God’s way are often counterintuitive.
June 5 at 9:48pm ·
Adam – I have no proof of a connection between Christians blaming God, and believing that He gives and takes away. I don’t know what all Christians believe, just what I use to believe. So I’m using the journey I’ve been on to come to the conclusions I’ve arrived at in order to help others. My simple bottom line is this: If a Christian believes God takes away, there is a danger in blaming Him when something bad (like a loss of loved one) happens. I see a slippery slope from the “God allowing” concept, to the “God is responsible” idea, to the “God caused this” belief, which Job’s (what I believe to be inaccurate) statement of: “God gives and takes away” naturally helps along the slide…
So getting back to the story of Job, and discussing what is good theology and what is bad theology is my goal… not semantics or useless debates… and I’m not saying Paul, Elijah or Sarai were useless, but I “swatted them down” because they lacked the theological relevance I’m after in the questions I followed up with Jonathan.
I just don’t see how Elijah going to heaven has to do with this discussion, because it’s the taking away from people still here. If you say, but he was taken away from Elisha, it doesn’t make sense because Elisha was given twice what Elijah had. Again, maybe my logic is different from yours, but it seems sound to me.
Lastly, I think I’m the one speaking in counterintuitive ways! To everyone else, it “makes sense” that God would take away… that’s just what people say when Christians die: “God took them home”. I’m looking at it this way: God recieved their soul in His timing, and it was a result of a fallen world, the corruptable being exchanged for the incorruptable, however God will restore what has been lost; He is the giver of all good gifts, and we have hope and eagerly await what we do not understand…
June 5 at 10:06pm ·
Tom – Take a look at 1 Kings 14:10, where God said he’d take away the remnant of the house of Jeroboam (the original means “sweep away”). Also, look at Amos 3, particularly verses 6, 12, and 15. This passage indicates that God is very closely involved in these acts. Psalm 78 and 1 Cor 10 show how God “took away” the blessings he had given to Israel in the desert. Hope this helps.
June 5 at 11:36pm ·
Adam – Tom, thanks for the verses, you’ve provided an excellent devotion time for me this morning as I like to read Psalms when I get up!
I don’t want to refute all that, but I do want to point out that in every case God has His reasons, and it looks like the majority of the time was due to the Israelites doing evil…
But before I head off to work, what I thought of last night was a satisfactory answer to the question of whether God does take away good; and the answer is Christ because He is the only example I find in the scriptures where God does harm to someone when they have done everything right, and Isaiah 53:10 is the loud and clear verse saying God did it. Which could bring up an entirely new discussion of why people (even some Christians) wrongly blame the Jews for the death of Jesus.
I also need to add that this entire thought process I went through came out as a result of discussing Job with a friend (2nd Lt down in P-cola) who has been reading (listening) through the Bible for a few months and does not accept Christ as the one and only way to heaven. It’s because of his wrong view of God, even though he believes in God, that makes me bring these questions and challenge what the majority of Christians believe. I don’t have any issues with what God does or why He does it; I’m simply putting forth what I find from scripture to be true: God gives and the devil steals, kills, and destroys. (I’ll post the verses again: John 10:10 and James 1:17)
Thanks gents for the comments, this has been a blessing!
June 6 at 5:26am
Annie – I’ve enjoyed reading the healthy banter. I rest in this, and call me simple if you want, to God be the glory. If God gives then in His perfect timing He will take. I’ve asked Him to take my life and make it His and when I dedicated my marriage and children I did the same. I think that’s why he allowed us to have a terminally ill child. To Him be the glory. Our lives and deaths are to proclaim Him. That is my one aim in this journey. My little boy has brought other to Jesus and I know already His life brings Gods glory. Blessed be the name of the Lord.
June 7 at 9:13am ·
Adam – Annie, your words really blessed me and encouraged my heart. Thank you so much for sharing. I appreciate the simplicity of how you explained your faith.
We often get bogged down in trying to make our points heard that we miss the point.
God is sovereign, and He is good.
Peace.
August 9, 2011 at 4:38 PM